Project Avalon has my attention. Please Asus, make it work and let it be adopted by other players. I know R&D cost and you want your work to be rewarded, but please think of the Children! Why no one thinks of the Children?!
No wait... Think on the possibilities of making MoBos like that. Just get CoolerMaster, Thermaltake and some other case makers onboard with it and the rest will follow. Add it to the form factor consortium or something XD
It's design of how they configure things with multiple PCI-e extensions will not be compatible with PCI-e 4.0, which is limited to two connectors in the signal path before signal loss becomes an issue. So, pretty much by the time something like this would get to market, it would be obsolete.
For the 240hz monitor, a good way to tell if the human eye cannot tell a difference is to test it out with professional gamers (preferably fast twitch shooters). They should be able to tell you if there is a difference or do a blind test with them. I won't listen to any more regular idiots who for the previous generation said the eye cannot tell the difference between 60hz and 120hz.
The main difference people should be noticing is not about "gaming" but the thing that it reduces further more the innate flaw of the LCD/OLED sample and hold way of delivering frames vs the constantly refresh nature of CRT.
OLED should starting to be called true CRT successor when every panel goes at 240Hz.
Considering that LCD monitors entered "mainstream" in 2003-2004 and that good quality 144Hz+ monitors of all resolutions are still prohibitively expensive for the average Joe, I would make a quick estimate that 960 Hz and it's driving hardware would theoretically reach our mortal realms in about 160 years.
There are studies to say that 240hz should be usable. However there are two things. Imagine persistence is more important and they didn't explicitly state ULMB support or what refresh range it works at. Second is there is really a point of diminishing returns for refresh anyways. With a 144hz monitor the difference between 60hz and 100hz is readily apparent. Going from 100 to 144hz less so. I imagine the jump to 240hz even less important.
Can anybody explain me why for God's sake there millions of updated LGA 2011-v3 motherboards but only in ATX size!?! I was patiently waiting to build a new Broadwell E PC with micro ATX or even mini ITX board and there is not a single micro ATX that has all the new features of their big brother (some don't have USB 3.1 other have the M.2 in the older PCI 2 format - not much faster than the SATA 3 etc.) Even going for z170 ( can't believe I will be upgrading to 4 core CPU after 6 years of 4 core CPU - core i7 870!) and there are just a few micro ATX z170 boards with all the new features. I am not going back to gigantic ATX case - thank you very much, so I am left with the choice of either not upgrading (I gave my old PC to my mom so currently I use MS Surface pro with a dock that works well for office work not so much for gaming) , wait for ZEN, buy a laptop that supports external video card dock (laptop + dock would probably take the same space and would have zero upgradability - except for the video card) or cave up and get core i7 6700k. So I don't understand why manufacturers don't want my money?
End users who are buying Broadwell-E are almost always doing it for 3+ way SLI reasons, which pretty much forces you into full ATX.
They presumably have research (or data from the past) that says they will not sell enough mATX boards with HEDT chipsets to be worth the engineering effort.
Well now that Nvidia would not support more than 2 cards SLI (except for benchmarking applications) the argument for 3 way SLI becomes moot. (micro ATX supports 2 way SLI). Starting to think we will be stuck with 4 core CPUs for the next 5+ years unless ZEN is a huge success.
uhhh... Nvidia still has 3 way/4 way SLI - they've only restricted SLI requirements to PCIe x8, versus AMD's crossfire x4; presumably to maintain a performance target. With "consumer" lines of Intel CPU's, you only get max 20 PCIe lanes (correct me if I'm wrong), allowing only 2 way SLI. HEDT chips have 28 to 40 to 40. Hence, 3 way to 4 way SLI is pretty much restricted purely to HEDT. Anandtech had an article about CPU/PCIe bottleneck with SLI/CF a ?few years back. If memory serves me correctly, PCIe x4 bottlenecks modern high end GPU's, and an i5 can run 2 high end GPU's without bottlenecking - it is when you go 3 cards you'll need an i7 for gaming (assuming you have enough lanes), and HEDT (my opinion now) if you want 4 cards (due to PCIe lanes, and enough cores to feed the cards)
Correct until GTX 1070&1080 were introduced. Starting with the GeForce GTX 1080, Nvidia is discontinuing official support for 3-way and 4-way multi-GPU SLI setups. http://www.pcworld.com/article/3071332/hardware/it...
"So I don't understand why manufacturers don't want my money?" I think they do but as stated in the article: "The three major form factors for custom build personal computers, in order of popularity, are ATX, followed by micro-ATX and then mini-ITX." I too am waiting for an external dock that I can plug my laptop into and achieve 80-90% of performance of a full size desktop. Whoever makes this will have grabbed two markets. Those who want a gaming desktop and are okay with huge cases (usually younger) and professionals like me who want the same but would never get a gigantic case. If we can get an external dock that tries to be compatible with most laptops as much as possible without looking like an eyesore and can deliver close to desktop performance, it would be an instant buy for a lot of people. As you now have a laptop and desktop. Though I think that this would come from a laptop manufacturer as if it was very well made and successful, I would think the market that would buy a desktop over a laptop for 10% gain in performance would be very small.
Guess I have to give my dream for small but super powerful desktop PC and embrace the reality that laptop/surface device + dock is the future for the middle aged professional :)
One more thing. The ATX may be indeed most popular size but that is mostly due to tradition not function as 99% of the consumer market don't need/use all the slots and space of a larger ATX case. That is why I like project Avalon but nobody knows if it ever would become a reality.
Unfortunately, in the current moment of the high tech industry, "middle age" is very inappropriate. Companies think their teen- and twenty-year old customers have many thousands of disposable income , and cater to them exclusively. Besides, young people buy easily obsolete or inferior tech, since they don't have comparison base :):). The only problem for the tech industry is, that younger population usually has no disposable income /and that's kinda universal truth over many centuries/ and just doesn't buy because it can't pay.
well said Ananke! Plus, as a coup de grace now we have to deal with gazillion of RGB lights inside our cases - if I wanted a freaking X-mas tree inside my case I would have bought one ! :)
I used to think that too. I would think that the market for young kids who can afford such huge expensive machines would be quite small as it would it would compose of rich people and not middle class which is much larger market. But as companies make more crazy led shiny cases and even have ram modules that have lights and crap on them, I want to say that either they are just dumb and don't know how to sell stuff or that they have much more real live market data then I do and that these things actually are a good thing to make. I could never see it but maybe these things do provide a good revenue source for the company.
I went with another ATX case because I wanted a silent build, which includes AIO radiators for when you are actually using a Broadwell-E at 100%, along with powerful GPU. They can dump out a lot of heat.
Right now my 6800k is using 45w at idle with a 4.3GHz overclock. That's according to the motherboard sensor on the Strix x99 Gaming that was mentioned in this article.
So while 45w isn't that much and can easily be handled by a HSF, at full tilt it's rated for 140w TDP (probably less because the 6800k is cut down).
Anyways, that's to say since I do VR with it, SLI really isn't a factor today and I use a single GPU. What ATX does allow is future further expansion via add in cards, and great and silent cooling. My whole rig has fans that are less than <1000 rpm at all times, and so it's almost always silent.
Nice rig heckhacker! Nowadays the components are getting more power efficient so I am planning on downgrading from 650W power supply to 550W one. As for silent build I am pretty sure I could make my rig as silent as I need it in mATX case (I am ready to go with minimum overclock to keep the noise down). In the eternal dilemma between firepower and mobility I prefer mobility (within a reason).
I'm continuing to use an ATX case for cooling, but the motherboard inside it is mATX since I finished my most recent upgrade. I briefly considered grabbing a smaller case, but it seemed like a waste of $30 to pick one up when there's nothing wrong with the old Lian Li tower on wheels from 2008 aside from the fact that it's got more space than I need right now.
Because it might be much easier to design full atx LGA 2011-v3 motherboard with all features enabled than micro/mini atx variant. I don't see that as a big issue though. You don't have to get monster case for that. Just get the smallest decent case for full atx mobo and have it sitting under table. Or don't go for LGA 2011-v3 get something simpler if you don't need all features if offers.
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43 Comments
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YukaKun - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
Project Avalon has my attention. Please Asus, make it work and let it be adopted by other players. I know R&D cost and you want your work to be rewarded, but please think of the Children! Why no one thinks of the Children?!No wait... Think on the possibilities of making MoBos like that. Just get CoolerMaster, Thermaltake and some other case makers onboard with it and the rest will follow. Add it to the form factor consortium or something XD
Cheers!
The_Assimilator - Thursday, June 23, 2016 - link
If the only thing that comes of Avalon is cusomisable rear IO panels on ATX boards, it's still a win.asuglax - Thursday, June 23, 2016 - link
It's design of how they configure things with multiple PCI-e extensions will not be compatible with PCI-e 4.0, which is limited to two connectors in the signal path before signal loss becomes an issue. So, pretty much by the time something like this would get to market, it would be obsolete.stanleyipkiss - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
That 5k monitor better be at $1000.damianrobertjones - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
"currently ways almost 40 lbs"That's a lot of ways... all 40 of them! Weight until people find out about that. I cannot wait :)
Grayswean - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
No whey, man!Wardrop - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
Wate, watt?Ian Cutress - Thursday, June 23, 2016 - link
:D Fixed :)vanilla_gorilla - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
Nice link on that monitor:file:///C:/Users/Excess/Dropbox/Camera%20Uploads/Computex%202016/Day%201%20-%20Tuesday/ASUS/amzn.com/s/?tag=anandtech01-20&field-keywords=UP2415Q
Holliday75 - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
This looks like a trick. What are you trying to pull here, buddy?Ian Cutress - Thursday, June 23, 2016 - link
It's an MSword issue when you (sometimes) insert a hyperlink. Should be fixed.Soundgardener - Sunday, June 26, 2016 - link
No; it's a technical publication issue when you forego proof-readers / copyeditors. Other examples:we waited until the following day and was able to browse the ASUS ROG Booth (we WERE not we was)
and they seem willing to be prepared to pay for it (willing / prepared: pick one, delete the other ;)
Other features such as color accuracy are also lauded by the professional community as well. (also / as well: again, only one needed...)
better color reproducibility (better colour reproduction, better colour gamut, or better colour...)
alphasquadron - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
For the 240hz monitor, a good way to tell if the human eye cannot tell a difference is to test it out with professional gamers (preferably fast twitch shooters). They should be able to tell you if there is a difference or do a blind test with them. I won't listen to any more regular idiots who for the previous generation said the eye cannot tell the difference between 60hz and 120hz.Lolimaster - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
The main difference people should be noticing is not about "gaming" but the thing that it reduces further more the innate flaw of the LCD/OLED sample and hold way of delivering frames vs the constantly refresh nature of CRT.OLED should starting to be called true CRT successor when every panel goes at 240Hz.
alphasquadron - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
Thought anything over a 100hz had a better refresh rate than CRTs, but then again not sure.Lolimaster - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
Frame time (sample and hold tech):60hz 16.66ms
120hz 8.33ms
240Hz 4.16ms
Technically you'll need about 960Hz on LCD's to achieve CRT levels of smoothness (lightboost is pretty close).
alphasquadron - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
That sucks because I don't see us reaching hardware to drive 960Hz anytime soon. We just got the hardware to drive 144hz at 1080p smoothly.Gastec - Wednesday, August 31, 2016 - link
Considering that LCD monitors entered "mainstream" in 2003-2004 and that good quality 144Hz+ monitors of all resolutions are still prohibitively expensive for the average Joe, I would make a quick estimate that 960 Hz and it's driving hardware would theoretically reach our mortal realms in about 160 years.Midwayman - Thursday, June 23, 2016 - link
There are studies to say that 240hz should be usable. However there are two things. Imagine persistence is more important and they didn't explicitly state ULMB support or what refresh range it works at. Second is there is really a point of diminishing returns for refresh anyways. With a 144hz monitor the difference between 60hz and 100hz is readily apparent. Going from 100 to 144hz less so. I imagine the jump to 240hz even less important.Bragabondio - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
Can anybody explain me why for God's sake there millions of updated LGA 2011-v3 motherboards but only in ATX size!?! I was patiently waiting to build a new Broadwell E PC with micro ATX or even mini ITX board and there is not a single micro ATX that has all the new features of their big brother (some don't have USB 3.1 other have the M.2 in the older PCI 2 format - not much faster than the SATA 3 etc.) Even going for z170 ( can't believe I will be upgrading to 4 core CPU after 6 years of 4 core CPU - core i7 870!) and there are just a few micro ATX z170 boards with all the new features.I am not going back to gigantic ATX case - thank you very much, so I am left with the choice of either not upgrading (I gave my old PC to my mom so currently I use MS Surface pro with a dock that works well for office work not so much for gaming) , wait for ZEN, buy a laptop that supports external video card dock (laptop + dock would probably take the same space and would have zero upgradability - except for the video card) or cave up and get core i7 6700k.
So I don't understand why manufacturers don't want my money?
A5 - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
End users who are buying Broadwell-E are almost always doing it for 3+ way SLI reasons, which pretty much forces you into full ATX.They presumably have research (or data from the past) that says they will not sell enough mATX boards with HEDT chipsets to be worth the engineering effort.
Bragabondio - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
Well now that Nvidia would not support more than 2 cards SLI (except for benchmarking applications) the argument for 3 way SLI becomes moot. (micro ATX supports 2 way SLI). Starting to think we will be stuck with 4 core CPUs for the next 5+ years unless ZEN is a huge success.Sushisamurai - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
uhhh... Nvidia still has 3 way/4 way SLI - they've only restricted SLI requirements to PCIe x8, versus AMD's crossfire x4; presumably to maintain a performance target. With "consumer" lines of Intel CPU's, you only get max 20 PCIe lanes (correct me if I'm wrong), allowing only 2 way SLI. HEDT chips have 28 to 40 to 40. Hence, 3 way to 4 way SLI is pretty much restricted purely to HEDT. Anandtech had an article about CPU/PCIe bottleneck with SLI/CF a ?few years back. If memory serves me correctly, PCIe x4 bottlenecks modern high end GPU's, and an i5 can run 2 high end GPU's without bottlenecking - it is when you go 3 cards you'll need an i7 for gaming (assuming you have enough lanes), and HEDT (my opinion now) if you want 4 cards (due to PCIe lanes, and enough cores to feed the cards)Bragabondio - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
Correct until GTX 1070&1080 were introduced. Starting with the GeForce GTX 1080, Nvidia is discontinuing official support for 3-way and 4-way multi-GPU SLI setups.http://www.pcworld.com/article/3071332/hardware/it...
Sushisamurai - Thursday, June 23, 2016 - link
Oh that is messed up. I've read their white paper, didn't even know they trashed the enthusiast key option. Wow that's super unfortunate.alphasquadron - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
"So I don't understand why manufacturers don't want my money?"I think they do but as stated in the article:
"The three major form factors for custom build personal computers, in order of popularity, are ATX, followed by micro-ATX and then mini-ITX."
I too am waiting for an external dock that I can plug my laptop into and achieve 80-90% of performance of a full size desktop. Whoever makes this will have grabbed two markets. Those who want a gaming desktop and are okay with huge cases (usually younger) and professionals like me who want the same but would never get a gigantic case. If we can get an external dock that tries to be compatible with most laptops as much as possible without looking like an eyesore and can deliver close to desktop performance, it would be an instant buy for a lot of people. As you now have a laptop and desktop. Though I think that this would come from a laptop manufacturer as if it was very well made and successful, I would think the market that would buy a desktop over a laptop for 10% gain in performance would be very small.
Bragabondio - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
Guess I have to give my dream for small but super powerful desktop PC and embrace the reality that laptop/surface device + dock is the future for the middle aged professional :)Bragabondio - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
One more thing. The ATX may be indeed most popular size but that is mostly due to tradition not function as 99% of the consumer market don't need/use all the slots and space of a larger ATX case. That is why I like project Avalon but nobody knows if it ever would become a reality.Ananke - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
Unfortunately, in the current moment of the high tech industry, "middle age" is very inappropriate. Companies think their teen- and twenty-year old customers have many thousands of disposable income , and cater to them exclusively. Besides, young people buy easily obsolete or inferior tech, since they don't have comparison base :):). The only problem for the tech industry is, that younger population usually has no disposable income /and that's kinda universal truth over many centuries/ and just doesn't buy because it can't pay.Bragabondio - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
well said Ananke! Plus, as a coup de grace now we have to deal with gazillion of RGB lights inside our cases - if I wanted a freaking X-mas tree inside my case I would have bought one ! :)alphasquadron - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
I used to think that too. I would think that the market for young kids who can afford such huge expensive machines would be quite small as it would it would compose of rich people and not middle class which is much larger market. But as companies make more crazy led shiny cases and even have ram modules that have lights and crap on them, I want to say that either they are just dumb and don't know how to sell stuff or that they have much more real live market data then I do and that these things actually are a good thing to make. I could never see it but maybe these things do provide a good revenue source for the company.Gastec - Wednesday, August 31, 2016 - link
I'm not sure that's the fact in North America. Not since the 15-30 years of age group queued for miles and waited for days to buy $500-600 iPhones.hechacker1 - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
I went with another ATX case because I wanted a silent build, which includes AIO radiators for when you are actually using a Broadwell-E at 100%, along with powerful GPU. They can dump out a lot of heat.Right now my 6800k is using 45w at idle with a 4.3GHz overclock. That's according to the motherboard sensor on the Strix x99 Gaming that was mentioned in this article.
So while 45w isn't that much and can easily be handled by a HSF, at full tilt it's rated for 140w TDP (probably less because the 6800k is cut down).
Anyways, that's to say since I do VR with it, SLI really isn't a factor today and I use a single GPU. What ATX does allow is future further expansion via add in cards, and great and silent cooling. My whole rig has fans that are less than <1000 rpm at all times, and so it's almost always silent.
Bragabondio - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
Nice rig heckhacker! Nowadays the components are getting more power efficient so I am planning on downgrading from 650W power supply to 550W one. As for silent build I am pretty sure I could make my rig as silent as I need it in mATX case (I am ready to go with minimum overclock to keep the noise down). In the eternal dilemma between firepower and mobility I prefer mobility (within a reason).BrokenCrayons - Thursday, June 23, 2016 - link
I'm continuing to use an ATX case for cooling, but the motherboard inside it is mATX since I finished my most recent upgrade. I briefly considered grabbing a smaller case, but it seemed like a waste of $30 to pick one up when there's nothing wrong with the old Lian Li tower on wheels from 2008 aside from the fact that it's got more space than I need right now.milkod2001 - Thursday, June 23, 2016 - link
Because it might be much easier to design full atx LGA 2011-v3 motherboard with all features enabled than micro/mini atx variant. I don't see that as a big issue though. You don't have to get monster case for that. Just get the smallest decent case for full atx mobo and have it sitting under table. Or don't go for LGA 2011-v3 get something simpler if you don't need all features if offers.fanofanand - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
Nice work Ian, thanks for the info!madwolfa - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
What's up with leather jackets?BrokenCrayons - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
It's probably just attire the company's employees believe will appeal to people within their target market.iamkyle - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
Of course, the x99 Edition 10 board doesn't come with 10GbE. But still commands the price premium.Looks like ASUS is all about money instead of delivering actual value.
Lolimaster - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
That's why im sticking for Gigabyte.eva02langley - Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - link
They still don't know how to do a graphic card or a gaming laptop 10 years later.Midwayman - Thursday, June 23, 2016 - link
Still no UHD high refresh monitors?